Cruella

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Stewball
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Re: Cruella

Post by Stewball »

We can quibble about language but..."The film industry believed that the greatest threat to its continued success was posed by television."--Britannica. And I remember similar sentiments on the radio news before we had a tv. "Out of business may be hype, but I didn't make it up.

How can you quote what I said about uninspired content (of superhero movies) and equate that to being a defense of The Justice League, of which my entire review was "One step above meh." My whole attitude about the genre in that post was they're uninspired. How you thought otherwise is???

As for the Critical Drinker, I immediately thought of this quote, "We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so."

Velvet Crowe
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Re: Cruella

Post by Velvet Crowe »

The movie industry was more or less heading this direction anyway. Covid really didn't cause it so much as it exacerbated already established issues with Hollywood atm. Though keep in mind that the audience for theatre going has expanded. While it has been declining in western nations, in places like China and India the audience for theatre going has been growing so Hollywood may end up catering more to those audiences if that's where most of their revenue is going to end up coming from. I'm not entirely sure to what extant filmmakers rely on theatre revenue, but the shift to different avenues of production and distribution was set in stone years ago.

ShogunRua
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Re: Cruella

Post by ShogunRua »

Stewball wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:40 pm
We can quibble about language but..."The film industry believed that the greatest threat to its continued success was posed by television."--Britannica. And I remember similar sentiments on the radio news before we had a tv. "Out of business may be hype, but I didn't make it up.
Yes, continued success, which is what I wrote, not continued existence, as in your initial claim.

The first was a threat to its profitability (and it did eat away massively at their profits, especially before the release of home video), but the pandemic is a serious threat to its very existence, at least in its current form.

The film industry may go on, but Hollywood specifically, which is what I pointed out, is finished.
How can you quote what I said about uninspired content (of superhero movies) and equate that to being a defense of The Justice League, of which my entire review was "One step above meh."
Do I have to spell it out for you? You blamed Wonderwoman 1984 being a financial disaster on the movie being "uninspired".

Well, The Justice League from 2017 was a highly financial successful blockbuster despite also being "uninspired".

Thus, we conclude that a big-budget superhero movie being inspired or uninspired has nothing to do with its financial success.
As for the Critical Drinker, I immediately thought of this quote, "We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so."
A silly, generic dismissal, especially since

1. The Critical Drinker was criticizing Disney and their business model of putting out warmed-over trash based on nostalgia, NOT a piece of art, which is what the quote is about.

2. The Critical Drinker's channel is full of videos praising various movies and TV shows.

ShogunRua
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Re: Cruella

Post by ShogunRua »

Velvet Crowe wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:49 pm
While it has been declining in western nations, in places like China and India the audience for theatre going has been growing so Hollywood may end up catering more to those audiences if that's where most of their revenue is going to end up coming from.
They're already catering massively to those audiences, to the point of massively editing their films for their Chinese release to avoid offending censors and theater-goers with things like...gay couples. All while being massively woke in the US and telling Middle America to go fuck themselves. But they're very meek and submissive towards China. They know who their masters are, and who they can and can't piss off.

Especially since China has bought up much of Hollywood in recent years. Bad investment, in retrospect, but one whose loss they can afford.
Velvet Crowe wrote:I'm not entirely sure to what extant filmmakers rely on theatre revenue, but the shift to different avenues of production and distribution was set in stone years ago.
Not at all. Just because, hypothetically, the wall between theatrical and home release might have come down, oh, 20 years into the future doesn't make that it's happening now and Hollywood is dead any less significant.

Theatrical releases are, for larger budgeted pictures, at least 50% of a film's total revenue (sometimes close to 75%), even when measured at 5 years from release.

Velvet Crowe
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Re: Cruella

Post by Velvet Crowe »

I wasn't arguing that this exacerbation didn't matter so much as it is I don't think covid alone should be blamed for the issues to come. These things have been set in stone years ago, at best you can only say that covid was a silver bullet.

To what extent Hollywood caters to China is a bit shaky. They'll definitely edit their marketing and segments of their film to appeal to a Chinese audience, but honestly that has been a thing for decades as media in general captured a global audience. You should look at the sort of shit Saudi Arabia or Germany has censored decades ago. The difference being is that the Chinese market can actually make or break the success of a particular film which is why there has been increasing interest in that market. I think the more pressing matter is to what extant the entire movie will be designed and written to appeal to eastern audiences, because I still think something like Star Wars was written with a western audience in mind even if it did get modified for Chinese viewers. I'd probably say this is true of most movies in Hollywood at the moment.

We see some films trying to cater to Chinese demographics like nu-Mulan, but it became clear in that example that Disney is extremely daft in terms of understanding what the Chinese audience actually wants and it flopped heavily in general. In contrast, a film like Warcraft bombed in western nations but was a huge success in China despite the film not aiming for that audience at all. I place this success largely on the fact that Warcraft as a brand is largely popular with Chinese people, so western companies do have some leeway in that. It'll be amusing to see what sort of brands will appeal to Chinese audiences, but if there's one thing I can have some faith in is that Disney will have less of a grasp of this audience as they do in America. Not to mention the Chinese film industry having its own presence, both within and outside the nation's borders.

ShogunRua
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Re: Cruella

Post by ShogunRua »

Velvet Crowe wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:31 pm
I wasn't arguing that this exacerbation didn't matter so much as it is I don't think covid alone should be blamed for the issues to come. These things have been set in stone years ago, at best you can only say that covid was a silver bullet.
By this logic, Edison's light bulb wasn't a big deal either, since there were a lot of engineers working in that direction, and if not for him, it would have taken just a few more years for someone else to come up with it. (As opposed to the 20 years it might have taken for the current Hollywood model to crack with before covid)
Velvet Crowe wrote:To what extent Hollywood caters to China is a bit shaky. They'll definitely edit their marketing and segments of their film to appeal to a Chinese audience, but honestly that has been a thing for decades as media in general captured a global audience.
No, it hasn't. They weren't editing their films for the Chinese market even 10 years ago. Note how a major picture like Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life, released in 2003, was rejected by Chinese censors for insulting their country by claiming that crime would go undetected and unpunished, and no one did any edits or reshoots back then.

This is very new and very recent, and is a direct response to the growing influence of the Chinese market as the second-largest and most-important one after the domestic US market as well as China buying up much of Hollywood as well as movie theaters.

Read these links to get a better understanding of what is going on;

https://www.heritage.org/asia/heritage- ... -hollywood

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35290404 (From 2016!)

Velvet Crowe
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Re: Cruella

Post by Velvet Crowe »

When did I say anything about it not being significant? I explicitly stated that wasn't my argument. You're arguing a strawman here. My argument is that Covid exacerbated the issue and can't be seen as the core cause, not that this exacerbation didn't matter.

I was stating that localization has been a thing for decades and businesses making changes to products for the sake of attracting foreign customers is not some new phenomenon. For example, the Turkish version of "The Exorcist" was remade to remove references to Christianity and replace it with Islamic references for the sake of penetrating that market. Another example is how various animated properties such as "The Simpsons" were modified in Japan to make characters have 5 fingers so as to not induce Yakuza connotations which is a touchy subject in the nation. Big Bird from Sesame Street was changed to a bear in Germany as localizers thought this would; for some reason, be more appealing to kids in that region. There are so many examples of this across the world that books could be made about all the specific changes that have been made to various properties over the years. This is an aspect of penetrating the Chinese market that is really not new to film producers, because editing content to appeal to local sensibilities has practically become an art.

In the context of China, many American films were outright banned or never got the chance to arrive on Chinese shores due to being outright banned or American developers viewing the Chinese market as not being valuable enough to cope with their demands of censorship. I'm not privy to the details, but I wouldn't doubt various changes have been made to Chinese films that did manage to get officially released in these nations as far back as like the 90's. What is new is that China actually has authority to demand changes be made in their interests which is something nations like Japan or Turkey never did nor did they have the clout to do so. The Chinese market has become valuable enough that the nation itself can dictate what Film Makers can or should produce, and naturally the potential profit loss is not something these people want to lose.

ShogunRua
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Re: Cruella

Post by ShogunRua »

Velvet Crowe wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:57 am
When did I say anything about it not being significant? I explicitly stated that wasn't my argument. You're arguing a strawman here. My argument is that Covid exacerbated the issue and can't be seen as the core cause, not that this exacerbation didn't matter.
You completely missed my own point. Namely, that literally any major development in our world, including scientific breakthroughs, can frequently be seen as nothing more than "exacerbating the issue" whose preconditions had already been established long ago.

It's a semantics game, and doesn't make said development any less significant. In this case, causing the collapse of Hollywood 20 years sooner than it might have happened otherwise is a huge deal, not to be minimized.
I was stating that localization has been a thing for decades and businesses making changes to products for the sake of attracting foreign customers is not some new phenomenon. For example, the Turkish version of "The Exorcist" was remade to remove references to Christianity and replace it with Islamic references for the sake of penetrating that market. Another example is how various animated properties such as "The Simpsons" were modified in Japan to make characters have 5 fingers so as to not induce Yakuza connotations which is a touchy subject in the nation. Big Bird from Sesame Street was changed to a bear in Germany as localizers thought this would; for some reason, be more appealing to kids in that region. There are so many examples of this across the world that books could be made about all the specific changes that have been made to various properties over the years. This is an aspect of penetrating the Chinese market that is really not new to film producers, because editing content to appeal to local sensibilities has practically become an art.

In the context of China, many American films were outright banned or never got the chance to arrive on Chinese shores due to being outright banned or American developers viewing the Chinese market as not being valuable enough to cope with their demands of censorship. I'm not privy to the details, but I wouldn't doubt various changes have been made to Chinese films that did manage to get officially released in these nations as far back as like the 90's. What is new is that China actually has authority to demand changes be made in their interests which is something nations like Japan or Turkey never did nor did they have the clout to do so. The Chinese market has become valuable enough that the nation itself can dictate what Film Makers can or should produce, and naturally the potential profit loss is not something these people want to lose.
I've never understood this mindset. This is a small, anonymous forum and we're probably the only two people reading one another's responses. And I provided you with two links, both reasonably short and using uncomplicated language.

So why, instead of bothering to read said links, and gain knowledge and information on the subject, do you find it preferable to ignore both links and instead double down on the same flawed point, complete with utterly baseless speculation?

Again, it's not like there is a reward for arguing here.

Stewball
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Re: Cruella

Post by Stewball »

ShogunRua wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:19 am
Again, it's not like there is a reward for arguing here.


You wouldn't think that, at least not from your posts. And talk about ignoring the points and links in others' posts, you obviously never even watched the latest trailer, just what that puffed up Critical Drunk Jerk said about it.
Last edited by Stewball on Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stewball
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Re: Cruella

Post by Stewball »

ShogunRua wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:50 pm
A silly, generic dismissal, especially since

1. The Critical Drinker was criticizing Disney and their business model of putting out warmed-over trash based on nostalgia, NOT a piece of art, which is what the quote is about.

2. The Critical Drinker's channel is full of videos praising various movies and TV shows.
Yeah, so now I gotta wade through his tirades to see what he approves of, which wouldn't be nearly as much fun for us peons to read, and god knows what kind of "art" that he likes would be. And while you're at it, show me a large production company that hasn't put out its share of warmed over trash, which is not, as best I can tell at this point, what "Cruella" is. The difference between you and me is, if it is trash, I have and will again admit to my mal-judgement--but you would never, while gloating that even I admit that I was wrong...not even granting an "occasionally".

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