The first amendment doesn't give you the right to shout "Fire" in a public place, and it doesn't give you the right to Be Evil. td888, Freedom of Speech does not give creative people the right to abandon all standards of civilization.
Or to pay homage to things that do.
GRINDHOUSE, SAW, HOSTEL and all of their ilk going back to NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD and worse (yes, worse -- I shan't promote them by naming them) are Pure Evil. It's no more or less complicated than that. A culture that tolerates such films is a depraved culture (no wonder Americans now believe that torture is an acceptable way to gain information from political prisoners -- they've been inured by years and years of Evil Crap like this!).
Guess what, I'm a proud liberal . . . being a liberal doesn't imply a lack of standards.
PS to KGB: please learn how to spell such words as cynicism, dictionary and entertainment if you want to be taken seriously (you ask me to look things up in a dictionary when you obviously haven't been anywhere near one yourself). By your own admission, on your own profile page, you cast yourself a bored 14 year old. I'm afraid your posts have made that very obvious.
Grindhouse
Re: Grindhouse
Oh, thank you for being so Mean (as you so desperately need to put negative words in capital letters, for reasons I cannot fathom) and enlightning my day. That's really a good argument you have in hands, the fact I'm 14. Now I have to look for a dictionary, huh? Well, you got me there alright!
Nah, doesn't worth it, anyhow. Grindhouses, "Pure Evil" or not, have become a cultural symbol. Paying homage to these is not an artistic abomination, wether you like it or not. 'The Night of the Living Dead' is a classic, for it's influence in the independent filmmaking process and in horror films especifically, but I guess there's no way I can convince you that this influence is anything else rather than an abomination.
Conclusion? Why bother.
Nah, doesn't worth it, anyhow. Grindhouses, "Pure Evil" or not, have become a cultural symbol. Paying homage to these is not an artistic abomination, wether you like it or not. 'The Night of the Living Dead' is a classic, for it's influence in the independent filmmaking process and in horror films especifically, but I guess there's no way I can convince you that this influence is anything else rather than an abomination.
Conclusion? Why bother.
Re: Grindhouse
People are flagging my posts as inappropriate.
You can disagree with my opinion, that's your right and privilege in a free society -- after nearly half a century of imprisonment on this effing planet (a sentence from which only movies allow me any temporary form of escape) I am quite used to being in the minority on almost every issue.
But -- DON'T YOU **DARE** TELL ME THAT IT IS INAPPROPRIATE TO EXPRESS MY OPINION in this or any other forum.
My posts have been 100 percent on topic.
Movies do not exist in a moral vacuum. GRINDHOUSE is no exception. Apologies to KGB for getting personal, but _you_ went there first . . . I should have resisted the temptation to slam you back.
Nonetheless -- oread is of the opinion that movies of this sort do not do any harm. I vehemently disagree. These movies do harm at both the personal and cultural level. If nothing else, they create an expanding cycle in which every succeeding film has to "top" the one that came before it in terms of how far a movie can cross the line -- what can we "get away with"? How horrible can we make it? By definition this propels the culture into a vortex of depravity.
Where are the limits? Where do we stop? What's it _for_? What is the difference between movies like this and the Roman coliseum where people were thrown to the lions for the sake of others' "entertainment"? If you like and get pleasure out of movies like this, what does that say about you? Ask yourself that. Look in the mirror. A very great possum once said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us." Google it.
You can disagree with my opinion, that's your right and privilege in a free society -- after nearly half a century of imprisonment on this effing planet (a sentence from which only movies allow me any temporary form of escape) I am quite used to being in the minority on almost every issue.
But -- DON'T YOU **DARE** TELL ME THAT IT IS INAPPROPRIATE TO EXPRESS MY OPINION in this or any other forum.
My posts have been 100 percent on topic.
Movies do not exist in a moral vacuum. GRINDHOUSE is no exception. Apologies to KGB for getting personal, but _you_ went there first . . . I should have resisted the temptation to slam you back.
Nonetheless -- oread is of the opinion that movies of this sort do not do any harm. I vehemently disagree. These movies do harm at both the personal and cultural level. If nothing else, they create an expanding cycle in which every succeeding film has to "top" the one that came before it in terms of how far a movie can cross the line -- what can we "get away with"? How horrible can we make it? By definition this propels the culture into a vortex of depravity.
Where are the limits? Where do we stop? What's it _for_? What is the difference between movies like this and the Roman coliseum where people were thrown to the lions for the sake of others' "entertainment"? If you like and get pleasure out of movies like this, what does that say about you? Ask yourself that. Look in the mirror. A very great possum once said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us." Google it.
Re: Grindhouse
And people are flagging me back (you, as a response?), and I can assure you I do not agree with any of the flaggings. Although you did shamelessly atacked me, this is still an aproppiate discussion. What's left of it, anyway.
People find entertainment in films such as 'Pulp Fiction', 'Reservoir Dogs', 'Sin City' and yes - 'Grindhouse', because they do not have to carry the moral guilt of a midget been fed to a lion. They also watch these films because they no it does no harm to them, on any level. The only thing that these films say about me, is nothing at all. You see, I like these films not necessarily for their violance, but for their style, quality, and everything else you look for at most films. If you can't stomach these films, why do you see them in first place? Don't tell me you didn't expect 'Grindhouse' to be such a film. Is it too easy not to avoid?
Well, I guess I can't stop the discussion myself, so I must ask you to stop it yourself.
People find entertainment in films such as 'Pulp Fiction', 'Reservoir Dogs', 'Sin City' and yes - 'Grindhouse', because they do not have to carry the moral guilt of a midget been fed to a lion. They also watch these films because they no it does no harm to them, on any level. The only thing that these films say about me, is nothing at all. You see, I like these films not necessarily for their violance, but for their style, quality, and everything else you look for at most films. If you can't stomach these films, why do you see them in first place? Don't tell me you didn't expect 'Grindhouse' to be such a film. Is it too easy not to avoid?
Well, I guess I can't stop the discussion myself, so I must ask you to stop it yourself.
Re: Grindhouse
Hi Freder,
Apparently this topic really hits a nerve with you. Anyway, We're getting in a philosophical discussion here. In my opinion 'freedom of speech' DOES give (creative) people the right to abandon/overstep all standards of civilization. This is called CHANGE and can lead to different insights in what's good or right. That's why and how societies change. I'm glad there are always people out there trying to change the world (for the good or the bad). At least it forces people to think about their current society/government/etc.. and decide whether they want it or not.
It's the same with movies, they reflect and have an effect on the society. If you don't agree, that's your right. But don't ask the goverment to stop making movies because they're morally offending. Once you go there, there's no end.
Now, I'm going to look at this movie. You made me very curious about this one.
Apparently this topic really hits a nerve with you. Anyway, We're getting in a philosophical discussion here. In my opinion 'freedom of speech' DOES give (creative) people the right to abandon/overstep all standards of civilization. This is called CHANGE and can lead to different insights in what's good or right. That's why and how societies change. I'm glad there are always people out there trying to change the world (for the good or the bad). At least it forces people to think about their current society/government/etc.. and decide whether they want it or not.
It's the same with movies, they reflect and have an effect on the society. If you don't agree, that's your right. But don't ask the goverment to stop making movies because they're morally offending. Once you go there, there's no end.
Now, I'm going to look at this movie. You made me very curious about this one.
Re: Grindhouse
I will say I flagged one of your posts as inappropriate. You said, and I quote: 'if you _like_this kind of stuff then _you_ are a part of the problem, too.' You have no reason to get personal with the people here based on your beliefs about this movie & others like it. You also have no right to threaten people here for doing so either (quote: 'But -- DON'T YOU **DARE** TELL ME THAT IT IS INAPPROPRIATE TO EXPRESS MY OPINION in this or any other forum. '). If you are going to personally attack people to the point of making it disruptive, I will continue to flag your posts. Debate is healthy, verbal attacks are not.
You also ask 'What is the difference between movies like this and the Roman coliseum where people were thrown to the lions for the sake of others' 'entertainment'?'; please don't tell me you really don't understand the difference. I am one of the most mild-mannered people you could ever meet, & actions in modern or ancient time similar to throwing people to the lions sicken me. However I am able to tell the difference between fact & fiction, between real depravity & entertainment.
I understand not everyone will be entertained by this type of movie, but many will; you don't have to be one of them. Even if movies like this create an expanding cycle where future films have to 'top' them, they will either continue to entertain or fail if they go to far & offend too many. If the latter is the case, less of them will get made as even independent film-makers still wish to make money & have people enjoy their work.
Lastly, not everyone here is an American (your comments re: first amendment, etc.) & not everyone's first language is English, you may want to remember that before picking on people for spelling.
You also ask 'What is the difference between movies like this and the Roman coliseum where people were thrown to the lions for the sake of others' 'entertainment'?'; please don't tell me you really don't understand the difference. I am one of the most mild-mannered people you could ever meet, & actions in modern or ancient time similar to throwing people to the lions sicken me. However I am able to tell the difference between fact & fiction, between real depravity & entertainment.
I understand not everyone will be entertained by this type of movie, but many will; you don't have to be one of them. Even if movies like this create an expanding cycle where future films have to 'top' them, they will either continue to entertain or fail if they go to far & offend too many. If the latter is the case, less of them will get made as even independent film-makers still wish to make money & have people enjoy their work.
Lastly, not everyone here is an American (your comments re: first amendment, etc.) & not everyone's first language is English, you may want to remember that before picking on people for spelling.
Re: Grindhouse
I disagree with you going completely off topic to call everyone names. That is not appropriate. You're basically trolling, trying to get people worked up, and you've succeeded. You're not discussing the movie or backing up your arguments, you're just spewing nonsense. Please crawl back down whatever hole you came from and delete all your posts on the way out. Thanks.
Re: Grindhouse
Give the guy a break... He has done nothing and you all know it. Rereading my first comments on this discussion, I might have sounded a little offensive, and I apologize - that wasn't my intention at all. Now everybody had apologized, and nobody did nothing wrong. If you want to participate please share your opinion regarding the violence factor in films, and don't look word after word for someone's mistake.
And supporting Freder on this, please, please - PLEASE - don't ever flag anyone for not sharing you opinion. Back on topic.
And supporting Freder on this, please, please - PLEASE - don't ever flag anyone for not sharing you opinion. Back on topic.
Re: Grindhouse
I'm sorry KGB, but I disagree.
I love a good debate, but that's not what was happening here. Oftentimes on the internet I find people treat others much differently than they would if they were face to face, anononymity should not be an excuse for abusive behaviour. I did not flag his post for not sharing my opinion (in fact I would often "star" a comment with a different opinion than mine), I flagged it for the attacking/ trolling nature.
Honestly I'd love to discuss this movie (and many others), but I think we need a fresh start here.
I love a good debate, but that's not what was happening here. Oftentimes on the internet I find people treat others much differently than they would if they were face to face, anononymity should not be an excuse for abusive behaviour. I did not flag his post for not sharing my opinion (in fact I would often "star" a comment with a different opinion than mine), I flagged it for the attacking/ trolling nature.
Honestly I'd love to discuss this movie (and many others), but I think we need a fresh start here.
Re: Grindhouse
Getting a little back to the topic, it really annoys me how this film has been split into two for a UK release. There's no way I'll ever pay twice the amount of money to see the same film, hopefully the DVD will be packaged as Grindhouse which would be a little consolation.