Why Top X Lists are Doomed to Failure

[ShogunRua]

When I was in my teens, I loved Top X lists. 10 Greatest Science Fiction Movies. 100 Greatest Television Shows. Etc, etc. As I grew older, I realized most of these lists sucked, and then that ALL of them sucked.

More recently, I realized that while it's excellent clickbait, these lists are by definition garbage. There is no exception and there never will be. Why?

Think about what it would take, for instance, to write a list of the 10 best movies of the 1950's. At a minimum, one would have to watch at least 1,000 movies from that decade. They would have to span a very wide range of genres; Westerns, dramas, comedies, musicals, noir, crime, etc. They would have to span a plethora of countries; US, Italy, France, Britain, Japan, etc.

How many people are there that have seen a rich, varied mix of 1,000+ movies from the 1950's? Vanishingly few.

On top of that, one needs a certain degree of overall intelligence as well as specific knowledge of film trends. One can't judge 50's Westerns, for instance, without tracing the path of Westerns in the 30's and 40's, understanding the different substrains of the genre, their treatment of the hero, morality, etc. Oh, and do this for all genres from all countries, preferably incorporating a knowledge of each people's history and cultural climate at the time.

How many people have the background and expertise to even begin to write this "10 best of the 1950's" that seemed so simple at first? Almost no one.

And if such a person existed, he/she would have much better things to do with their time and intellect than write dumbass Top X lists. Like reading a good book or watching an interesting film.

[mattorama12]

You're certainly right that they are doomed to fail in what the purport to say, which is to state definitively what the best of something is. And for an even more fundamental reason that the ones you've listed (which are also true). What is best is subjective.

In any event, I don't think these lists are doomed to fail entirely. From the author's perspective, they succeed in the thing they are meant to do: generate clicks. From the reader's perspective, they can work the same way as this website does by offering people new movies to check out. By that I mean, if I see a random list of Top 10 X and I've never seen any of the films, it's a pretty meaningless list for me. But if I've seen and loved 8 of the films on the list, I then have a good data point that I will like the other two.

[ShogunRua]

You're certainly right that they are doomed to fail in what the purport to say, which is to state definitively what the best of something is. And for an even more fundamental reason that the ones you've listed (which are also true). What is best is subjective.

That's not why. Subjective articles can still be highly worthwhile, illuminating, and entertaining. Three adjectives I would never use to describe "Top X Lists".

But if I've seen and loved 8 of the films on the list, I then have a good data point that I will like the other two.

That's the reasoning I used for a long time to self-justify looking at these clickbait lists, heh.

However, I realize now they are a very suboptimal tool for movie and TV recommendations. Part of that may just be me; I've yet to come across a single Top 10 list where I loved all 8 of the movies I've seen on there.

But I also find tools like the Criticker algorithm, flawed as it is, to be better. Or simply checking out notable movies from directors and writers I enjoy.

[AFlickering]

i agree that such lists are made somewhat obsolete by tools such as the criticker database or the RYM friend charts (i really wish we could sort by kumpel rating... maybe one day). and obviously 99.9% of them are clickbait garbage as you say.

i have seen some pretty strong aggregated top X lists over the years though. it's really just a matter of sourcing the data from the right individuals--garbage in garbage out. such individuals are rare as you've said, but for precisely that reason those individuals tend to flock to the same niche cinephile communities and those communities will then combine a great deal of knowledge and experience into some very helpful top X lists. i remember some very rich, diverse lists from places like the long disbanded TLC, MUBI/SCFZ, maybe criterionforums to a point, etc. similarly, some publications (a small minority, i'll grant you) hire a much higher standard of critic than others and their lists reflect that.

[90sCoffee]

They're tools meant to help you find stuff to watch and stuff which is generally accessible/non-obscure. They aren't literal top 10 lists.

My list of top 10 albums from 2021 is MY list of my favourite albums from 2021, not a list of THE best albums of 2021.

[ShogunRua]

They're tools meant to help you find stuff to watch and stuff which is generally accessible/non-obscure.

That's neither the way they're represented nor necessarily their appeal.

They aren't literal top 10 lists.

Yet they're almost always presented as such.

[Ununnilium]

Sir. Sir.

Literally every opinion on movies anyone has ever had is subjective. People are sharing their subjective opinions on what movies are the best with you and you're demanding that they adhere to absolute scientific rigor. I certainly hope you can pull your head out of your ass and appreciate human beings sharing their feelings and experiences, or else I don't know what you get out of film in the first place.

[metalhank]

So right Ununnilium, otherwise you might as well rate thumbs up or thumbs down since in effect YOU are creating your own top 10 list otherwise.

[VinegarBob]

Top 10 films of the 50s:

Rashomon
The Browning Version
Ikiru
Paths of Glory
Sansho The Bailiff
Aparajito
A Man Escaped
Wild Strawberries
Vertigo
Nights of Cabiria

Done

[ShogunRua]

Sir. Sir.

Literally every opinion on movies anyone has ever had is subjective. People are sharing their subjective opinions on what movies are the best with you and you're demanding that they adhere to absolute scientific rigor. I certainly hope you can pull your head out of your ass and appreciate human beings sharing their feelings and experiences, or else I don't know what you get out of film in the first place.

I too hope you can one day pull your head out of your ass, as you missed the entire point of the topic.

I wouldn't have minded clarifying myself had you asked me to, but since your first response was to be an insulting douchebag instead, I'll simply dismiss you as such.

Top 10 films of the 50s:

Rashomon
The Browning Version
Ikiru
Paths of Glory
Sansho The Bailiff
Aparajito
A Man Escaped
Wild Strawberries
Vertigo
Nights of Cabiria

As good as any list I've come across!